News.am spoke with Jared Genser, international human rights lawyer and legal counsel to Ruben Vardanyan, who has been imprisoned in Azerbaijan for nearly two years. In a wide-ranging interview conducted in Yerevan, Genser discussed the conditions of Vardanyan’s detention, the broader situation of Armenian political prisoners and POWs, the international pressure being applied—particularly by the Trump administration—and the urgent need for coordinated diplomatic action to secure their release.

To begin, could you share the most recent information you have regarding Ruben Vardanyan’s overall health condition? 

I think Ruben has been through a lot, as have all the other political prisoners and POWs. They're not well cared for. You can see that Ruben has lost an enormous amount of weight, and he has had a very difficult time at various points in light of how he and the others have been treated. The reality is that the International Committee of the Red Cross, which used to be able to regularly visit him, is now no longer operating in Azerbaijan. This is an enormous problem because they have been really the only independent monitor capable of seeing what's going on and lodging concerns with the government as they have come up. So we're very concerned about Ruben's health and welfare, and that of the other Armenian political prisoners and POWs. It's an enormous concern.

At present, there is no international monitoring of the Armenian prisoners. In your view, what steps should be taken to ensure their rights are properly protected? 

It's a good question. The reality is that Azerbaijan is well known to be an authoritarian regime. There are also more than 350 Azeri political prisoners in the country as well, because Ilham Aliyev is, I think, afraid of his own people and what they might do if they actually were able to have a free and fair election. So it isn’t a unique problem for the Armenian prisoners that they're going through, but it's especially bad for the Armenian prisoners. And the fact, for example, that Ruben and the others can’t even have access to a Bible as Christians, I think is really deplorable. The reality is that I think we need to shine a bright light on what's going on there and talk about their situation and what they're going through.

Unfortunately, the secrecy associated with how they’re being treated is very similar to what’s going on with their so-called legal processes. Ruben Vardanyan has been on trial now for more than six months before a military tribunal, which is closed to the public. A lot of so-called evidence is being presented that has no validity of any kind—people saying they were injured, but having no connection to Ruben in any way at all. The media can’t attend these trials. Independent monitors can’t come to this trial, or to the others.So, I mean, it's a closed society, and that's the way in which the Azeri regime is conducting these trials.

Just yesterday, the court denied several of Ruben Vardanyan’s petitions, including a request for his family to receive a copy of the indictment. 

Look, the due process abuses in the case have been very consistent and highly egregious. As a matter of international law, for example, a military tribunal does not have the competence to try a civilian. Ruben never served in the military, and yet he is being tried before a military tribunal. This is because military judges and military prosecutors, under international law, are not considered independent and impartial, as they report to the commander-in-chief—who, of course, is President Aliyev. So from the outset, the entire process is flawed. It doesn't matter what they present in that court—any conviction would be illegal and in violation of international law. He has repeatedly been denied access to translated materials—his counsel as well. They barely know what the charges are against him. He hasn’t been able to engage in the legal process in any meaningful way at all.

At this point, the judges aren’t even following Azerbaijani law in how they conduct the case. As a matter of evidence, for example, no witness should be presented unless they have firsthand information about an alleged crime that Ruben Vardanyan has committed.

And yet, we’ve literally seen 150 to 200 so-called witnesses—people who were reportedly injured in the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan—testify. They talk about their injuries and present medical evidence, but not a single one of them knows Ruben. None have said they know him, seen him, or met him. They have no connection to him at all.

Their only so-called information about his involvement or responsibility is what they’ve heard in the media—that he’s responsible. He’s been blamed by the Azerbaijani regime, so they blame him. This would not be considered valid evidence in any legitimate court of law. If I were to say I heard from my friend that you ran that person over on the street, that would not be allowed in any court of law as evidence. They would want someone to witness you doing it, saying, 'I saw you doing that on the street. In this case, not a single witness has provided any evidence of any kind, that he actually did anything he’s been accused of. He’s now had more than 20 hearings—21 in fact—and they’ve all gone the same way. I don’t know who the Azerbaijani regime is trying to fool with this proceeding. No one believes it to be a legitimate or valid proceeding. And that doesn’t even touch on the substance of the charges against him, which are of course politically motivated and invalid under international law.

The political motivation behind these charges is well understood in Armenia. But what should be done to ensure that the international community also recognizes the absurdity of this entire process?

I think it's well understood that Aliyev detained many political prisoners, both his own as well as Armenians. So I think that it's really about how do we ultimately get to a position where we can get the Armenian prisoners out. That’s where, unfortunately, this is no longer a legal question or a set of legal questions. These are political questions.

What needs to happen is a concerted effort by the international community to apply the kind of pressure on Aliyev that makes his continued detention of Armenian political prisoners and POWs no longer sustainable.

And I will say that there's a lot of pressure coming down on him from Washington and from President Trump, which I think has been very constructive and helpful. And the reality is that the Trump administration has made clear to Aliyev that the Armenian Christian prisoners need to be released, the POWs need to be released either at the same time or before the potential of any peace deal being signed and being entered into force.

I think that this is the kind of pressure really that's necessary that will force Aliyev to think differently about the situation. Otherwise, this is just more of the same."

But given that we haven’t seen any concrete results so far, are these just statements, or is there actual pressure being applied on Azerbaijan by U.S. authorities? 

There have been a number of public statements that I think demonstrate quite clearly that pressure is being placed on Azerbaijan. You had the U.S. National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, for example, talking about his discussion with the National Security Advisor of Azerbaijan and saying it was conveyed that the prisoners needed to be released.

We know that envoys for President Trump have conveyed that privately to Aliyev as well. And the White House has engaged in a lot of behind-the-scenes work to try to get a peace deal into effect and ultimately to secure the release of the immediate Christian prisoners.

Working in these cases is very much like the proverbial iceberg — you only see about 10% above the water and 90% below. What I can say is that I have more hope now than I have had in a long time that we’re moving in the right direction. Aliyev understands he needs to come to a peace deal, and there will be consequences if he doesn’t. And ultimately, the prisoners need to be released at the same time of or before such a deal comes into effect. 

What do you think will be the ultimate price Azerbaijan may face for keeping the Armenian prisoners detained for so long? 

Up until this point, there has not been much of a price. But ultimately, I’m quite convinced from the discussions that I’ve been having with key people in the Trump administration that that’s going to change if a peace deal is not reached and if the prisoners are not freed.

I think there are lots of options that are being considered and discussed. I’m obviously not in a position to speak in any detail about any of that. You could direct questions to the Trump administration and ask what they intend to do. But I will say that from the discussions I’ve been having with senior officials in the Trump administration, I am convinced that they’re focused on this issue. It is a top priority.

President Trump has made very, very clear to Aliyev that the Armenian Christian prisoners need to be released. Obviously, Aliyev will have to make his own decision about what to do. But I think there’s a lot that he wants from Washington. I think he’d like to meet President Trump in the Oval Office. I think he’d like to see the sanctions lifted. None of these things are going to be possible unless a peace deal is reached and unless the prisoners are released.

And what about the Armenian authorities — what should they be doing at this stage to help secure the release of the prisoners? 

I have had concerns that I’ve expressed in the past about how strongly Prime Minister Pashinyan is engaged on these issues. Of course, I’m not aware of everything that might be happening behind the scenes, but I am concerned that, for example, the issue of the prisoners is not in the peace agreement.

I’m also concerned that if the peace agreement is reached, my understanding is that it talks about the need for all cases at international tribunals to be dropped by both sides, and that no cases relating to these prior claims can be raised going forward.

This is really important to understand, because it means that if a peace deal is reached before the prisoners are freed, Armenia would not only have to drop their cases at international tribunals, but could not raise any of these cases either.

So it is absolutely critical that the prisoners be released before or at the same time as an agreement, because otherwise they’re going to be stuck there indefinitely, and the government of Armenia would be prohibited from raising their cases or expressing ongoing concerns.

We need a peace deal that is comprehensive. The only way you can have a peace deal that is sustainable over time is if all of the outstanding issues have been fully addressed at the time of, or before, the agreement is reached. And this means we really need Prime Minister Pashinyan to insist that this is exactly what needs to happen. Because if it does not happen, that will be the equivalent of simply abandoning them to their fates in Azerbaijan

Unfortunately, just days ago, Armenia’s Foreign Minister announced that there are no ongoing discussions with Azerbaijan regarding the prisoners, as Azerbaijan denies engaging in such talks. This only deepens the concerns surrounding the fate of the detainees. 

I can’t speak to what might be happening in any discussions between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but I can say that I’m very aware the Trump administration is putting pressure directly on Aliyev — personally and through intermediaries — that the Armenian Christian prisoners are going to need to be released.

So, whatever might be happening between Armenia and Azerbaijan, there’s a third party in these discussions, which is the United States. Even before President Trump was elected, he put out a Truth Social post where he described what had happened in Artsakh as ethnic cleansing. He also said that, as president if elected — and of course, he has been — he would stand up for persecuted Christians around the world.

Everything I’ve seen coming out of the administration since President Trump’s inauguration has been consistent with that prior commitment. Obviously, until it’s done, it’s not done. We are still far from reaching an agreement and the release of the prisoners. We’re not there yet, but I am convinced that it’s a top priority for the Trump administration.

And if Aliyev would like to see a positive relationship with the United States, I’m very much convinced that would require the release of the Armenian Christian prisoners — and that relationship is not going to improve unless they are ultimately freed.

To sum it up, what do you believe needs to be done now to secure the release of the Armenian prisoners? 

Obviously, we need pressure from all like-minded governments around the world to put as much pressure as possible on Azerbaijan to come to the table. My strong sense is that Armenia wants an agreement and would be prepared to sign it now. I think it’s well understood in Washington that the claims being made by Aliyev — about needing to change the constitution or create a new corridor or whatever else — are just excuses to buy time and kick the can down the road.

The United States is getting quite frustrated and concerned about that. It’s well understood in Washington that Aliyev is the problem, not Prime Minister Pashinyan. But we do need Prime Minister Pashinyan to insist in his discussions with Washington — and continue to speak publicly — about the need for the release of the Armenian Christian prisoners, and to commit publicly that he will not sign a deal unless those cases have been resolved. That would help a lot in terms of sending the right kind of political message about what is ultimately going to be necessary.

Whether Armenia and Azerbaijan are discussing this issue directly is neither here nor there. What matters is what happens. There is a lot going on behind the scenes from different perspectives, thinking through the consequences for Aliyev if he ultimately does not sign a peace deal or release the prisoners. I am convinced that things have changed dramatically.

Under President Biden, the administration’s position was dramatically different. The Biden administration said it was trying to facilitate a peace deal between both sides and, if neither side wanted an issue on the table, it wouldn’t insist on keeping it there — because the goal was simply to help reach an agreement.

By contrast, the Trump administration’s position has been made very clear to both sides: a deal is expected to be signed, and the Armenian Christian prisoners are expected to be released. This has to happen as a high priority.

I would say, overall, the Armenian people need to continue speaking out publicly about the need for the release of the prisoners and the importance of prioritizing their freedom. Yes, of course, no one wants to see another war. Yes, peace is extremely important. But the question is: peace at what price?

Once any kind of peace deal is signed, Aliyev is going to say, 'There’s nothing more to discuss with Armenia — everything has been resolved in the peace agreement.' And if the prisoners are not released before or at the time of that agreement, they will spend the rest of their lives in prison. There won’t be any issues that Prime Minister Pashinyan could even raise, because Aliyev will respond, 'We have a peace deal. It’s done. Don’t talk to me about anything else.'

So, it has to be a comprehensive peace deal — and the prisoners need to be released.

I think we missed one important point — you're not allowed to enter Azerbaijan to represent Ruben Vardanyan in court. How does this restriction affect your ability to defend him effectively? 

Well, that obviously makes it impossible for me to defend him, because I can't get direct information from him myself. I did apply to the court and to the Prosecutor General's Office for permission to come and see my client, as well as to be present in court for the trial. Not, obviously, as an Azerbaijani lawyer — I'm not qualified to practice law in Azerbaijan. But even under Azerbaijani law, an international lawyer can provide advice to a person who is detained in Azerbaijan about international law standards, and this is, of course, what I wanted to do. I got no response at all from the Azerbaijani regime.

This, of course, is another violation of international law. A person who is a criminal defendant has the right to have attorneys of their own choosing representing them, both as a matter of domestic and international law. And this is another very clear violation of Ruben's rights.

One other key point I want to emphasize is that when I was first instructed to represent Ruben, I was given a very clear message from him — that I should be advocating not just for him, but for all of the Armenian political prisoners and POWs. He was not just looking to get himself out of jail. He is in strong solidarity with the other former Artsakh officials who are detained, as well as with the POWs. He really wants everyone to come home. And this is what we've been doing all around the world.

When we talk about Ruben’s case and what he's going through, it is emblematic of the broader abuses that are happening. In every place where we have discussions — publicly and privately — we talk about how all of them need to be freed. All of them need to be able to come home.

We are all waiting for that moment. But how soon do you think this may happen?

I wish I could predict the future — I think we all do. I know how desperate the circumstances are for all of the Armenian prisoners and their families, who are living through hell on a daily basis. From many years of experience representing political prisoners, I know that the uncertainty and the suffering are a daily existence.

Every day, the families wake up wondering how their loved ones are doing. They go to bed thinking about their loved ones. This is a constant source of enormous and ongoing pain.

As Ruben’s lawyer, I feel a dramatic sense of urgency on his behalf and on behalf of all the others. I’m more optimistic now than I’ve been at any point over the last two years. A lot is going on behind the scenes — some of which I’m aware of, and some of which I’m not. But I’m convinced that this has been made a top priority by President Trump and his administration. They are very focused on this, despite everything else happening in the world.

In all the discussions I’ve had over time, it’s been consistently reinforced to me that this is a top priority. And although I can’t get into any details, I’m convinced — based on the information I’ve received — that this is in fact the case.

So, I think there’s reason to be cautiously optimistic. I’m never more than cautiously optimistic in this kind of work, but the bottom line is that we have no choice but to continue to act, to continue to speak out, to continue to advocate for all of the Armenian prisoners. We have no choice.  The only way they’re going to come home is by speaking up, speaking loudly, and demanding that their rights be respected — demanding that they come home to their families. Without that kind of public advocacy, there’s no hope at all.

I am optimistic. I do believe that we’ll see them come home. I can’t give you a time frame, of course. But what I can say for sure is that this is not a blank check for Aliyev to take however much time he would like. There are time limits being placed on him — expectations for what he’s going to do, when, and how. His failure to act alone will trigger actions by the Trump administration and other governments around the world.

He doesn’t have unlimited time before there will be consequences for his decisions. At the same time, as I’ve said, there’s a lot he wants from Washington. So, when thinking about situations like this, it’s important to make sure that the dictator in question — in this case, Aliyev — understands that there could be serious consequences if he doesn’t act, but that there are also incentives if he does. It’s really up to him to decide which path to take.

What’s clear to me is that the status quo is not going to be acceptable for much longer. Ultimately, he will have to make a decision. And, in light of the way President Trump has been conducting his foreign policy, if I were Aliyev, I’d be worried. From all the conversations I’ve been having, it’s clear that President Trump is quite unpredictable in how he engages with world leaders. Aliyev could very well find himself on the wrong side of the president — and that is not a place anyone wants to be these days.

Thank you.

Gayane Aleksanyan